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Kidologist
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Karl Bastian
Joined: 20 October 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 3203
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| Posted: 09 January 2004 at 12:11am | IP Logged
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OK - I'm gonna do it - I am going to open the CAN OF WORMS!
Which is better, the MAC or the PC!?
 VS. 
I started out on PC with one of the first laptops, a Toshiba1000 - had to load the operating system every time I booted up! (I know, I'm getting old!) I went from a Laser 128 (a generic of Apple IIc) and then when PowerBook 180 came out, and everyone was jealous because MY laptop had 16 shades of grey!!! OOOOH, aren't YOU amazed! Of course color came soon after.
 
I was a loyal Mac user until Bill Gates stole (yes, STOLE) everything good about Mac with Windows 95, and I had to agree at that time, that Win95 brought together the best of both and went back to being a PC Guy, though always with an eye on Apple, but I had to go with what most people used at work, and with this Kidology ministry I need the software only available on PC at the beginning. (though I must admit that since 2000 our web designers have created Kidology.org on Macs!)
Well, it finally happened, someone gave me a Mac G4 with OS X and I am trying it out 'on the side' and while I am still much faster with PC (I use more keyboard short-cuts than most people have ever heard of, rarely even need a mouse or touchpad) I am finding the Mac very fun and easy to use, a few quirks aside from being new to it.
SO I LAY IT OUT THERE:
1) WHICH DO YOU USE (the poll)
2) AND WHICH DO THINK IS BETTER (not necessarily the same!) and WHY?
3) BIASED OPINIONS WELCOME!
Be bold - I was just telling someone the other day, there are few people who are objective on this question! The word tends to be made up of Bill Gates haters and Bill Gates fans. Personally, I'm rather grateful to Bill Gates, without his vision, there may be no Kidology.org and the ability to network and equip and encourage children's workers through this site! But what is YOUR OPINION? I am very open to the making the 'switch' - but would say I am still 83% PC and 17% Mac at this point - which is a big move toward Mac!
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cindykvfc11885
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Joined: 06 November 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 3
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| Posted: 09 January 2004 at 2:03pm | IP Logged
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I'm going to have to claim ignorance on the Mac - very rarely have used one - I've been a PC person since the beginning. I am always amazed at what can be done on a mac and for the purposes of graphic editing and movie making, I'm VERY interested in a Mac.
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CTlady
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Joined: 11 November 2003
Posts: 15
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| Posted: 09 January 2004 at 6:25pm | IP Logged
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Mac is always on the forefront of innovation. It's made me disappointed that MS stole so much of this and we give them our hard earned dollars despite this! 
Apple deserves our patronage for being the creative innovator.
People say "Macs are good for graphics/publishing" but everything else PeeCee's are fine. Well, Macs are good at graphics/publishing because CREATIVITY is needed. That's the Mac, CREATIVE/INNOVATIVE. Just like Pastor Karl's Kidology Ministry. I think PK's Ministry would be unleashed and would know no bounds, Glory to God!
Mike (Kelly's Husband)
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kevinM6183
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Joined: 28 September 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 44
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| Posted: 09 January 2004 at 6:39pm | IP Logged
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Well after working in the computer field for a few years dealing with Mac (apple) and PC my conclusion is a follows:
Eat fruit, work on PC
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Kidologist
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Karl Bastian
Joined: 20 October 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 3203
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| Posted: 09 January 2004 at 8:41pm | IP Logged
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Question: is the Apple logo, the bite out of the Apple, a symbol of the origin of sin?? Is that a subtle way of saying that to use a Mac is sin? Just curious.
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JediKindergartner
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| Posted: 09 January 2004 at 11:33pm | IP Logged
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Heh, does ye really have to ask what I use? An Apple, of course!  I grew up on PCs; yeah, I even could program in BASIC on those pokey DOS-based computers back when I was 6-years-old.Then, almost a year ago, I bought a PowerMac G4, got Final Cut Pro installed on the sucker, and haven't looked back since. I did the Switch.
Yeah, I now Think Different.  Call it sinful, but in that case it's the most pleasurable sin of all. 
It's just soooooo nice, though, I can't tell you how wonderful it is to be in love with your computer. I'm a Power User, to be sure -- my life is on my computer. I have three days of music plugged into iTunes and wouldn't dream of using any other media player. I have my life (and several other's) chronicled in pictures in iPhoto -- a couple thousand pictures, and can instantly create slideshows or coffee books or generate an online photo album or whatever with any of them. I can sooo easily create a quick movie whenever I need with iMovie, and then burn it onto DVD with iDVD -- and all in such brilliant style and speed.
What's more, it all just works. Together. Your life is no longer a mess, spread about across multiple harddrives and random folders. You wanna add background music to a movie you're working on? Not a problem -- hit a single button in iMovie and it shows your whole iTunes library, separated into your playlists and everything else.
My desktop is covered in lovely stickie notes and Widgets -- it's the most wonderful thing in the world. And they're not square box windows: they're just there, with little regard to the boxed confines of Windows. It's like my desktop is alive.
Add to this Mac's recent operating system upgrade, Panther -- it's got so many useful productivity tools it's not funny. Hit one single button and every single window you have open -- which in my case is typically millions -- is automatically shrunken and scaled so that everything appears on the monitor. It's a simple matter of moving your mouse over which window you want, then. I suppose you gotta try it to get the full joy, but Alt-Tab's got nothin' on Apple, let me say. See? And that's not even my typical workload: that's just half a dozen Quicktimes, my DVD Player, and iTunes playing at the same time, along with a dozen or so pictures that I don't bother to close (why?), MSN Messenger, Mail, Safari -- my internet browser, Palm Desktop, iPhoto, half a dozen Widgets, and my screenplay. (Just, hehe. Usually I have the intensive Final Cut Pro and/or Photoshop -- and a few other programs running as well. And my computer handles everything; not a Blue Screen of Death in sight.) 
And none of this is even to say how necessary, how integral Macs have become for all the graphics, publishing, and video work I do. As CTLady said, every creative professional uses Macs simply because Macs are creative and professional -- hehe, and innovative. They suit our lifestyle, they're conducive to creativity -- which is so much more than I could ever have said about my old PC. Why else would anybody edit award-winning films on Apple, carry the entire human genome on his iPod, shape America's visual culture as a designer's designer, compose Hollywood's best film scores, or even, for that matter, take tens of thousands of picture of African life and culture -- on anything but a Mac?
Yeah, call me a crazy loon for being this fanatic about a simple computer -- but at least I'm a crazy loon who experiences absolute joy every single day in the form of his computer.
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JediKindergartner
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 12:11am | IP Logged
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And while I'm at it, I should absolutely plug Apple's superb Education program. They actually care about education, simply put. They know how frustrating technology can be for teachers, but realize how today's kids are growing up as digital kids.
They're revolutionizing school administration solutions. They're providing and empowering teachers with new and innovative ways for teaching (using the iLife suite, for one). And they're paving the way for 1 to 1 Learning -- that is, one computer to one kid. They're honoring teachers, not only by providing them with technology that they can use during class, but by recognizing and respecting successful teaching.
It's little wonder they keeping winning awards for excellence in Technology & Learning.
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Kidologist
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Karl Bastian
Joined: 20 October 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 3203
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 12:36am | IP Logged
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OK, I've just moved from 83% PC and 17% Mac to 81.6 PC to 18.4% Mac - and that's a big move! Earlier today I was at 82.3% PC and 18.7% Mac. I'm moving, slowly, but steadily.
I think "Jedi" has talked me into Panther. I was generously donated a G4 PowerMac by a friend trying to 'convert' me and I must say I have been amazed so far. I had NO software installed on it, and all you can do just with a 'plain' 'ol Mac is amazing. Then I installed Ilumina Gold, (website currently down) and am enjoying that. I just got my AppleWorks today and will install as soon as I get home.
I must say, that I have found the Mac to very easy, natural, and integrated, but I have to admit, it does seem a bit slow, and all the pastels is kinda annoying, gimmie some REAL colors, like RED, BLUE, YELLOW, not all this light pinkie stuff. But I do like the ease of how everything works. A lot of stuff you can do on the web is built intot he Mac, and I haven't even looked at iPhoto or iMovie, because I don't have any photos or movies yet. I still have a hard time imagining leaving PC due to all the programs I have that Mac doesn't - but I can always have a PC desktop for that stuff - I don't know - hard to change - I am a short-cuts whiz and am really fast on a PC, but, ok, I'll move to 79.7% PC and 20.3% Mac.
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kevinM6183
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Joined: 28 September 2005
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 9:17am | IP Logged
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Yes the mac has nice toys, but you can get the same toys and do the same things with a PC. The funny thing is that it is difficult to excange files from Mac to PC. Now about 99.9% of the world uses the PC (yes sometimes a million flys can be right) so this causes some problems. You can convert some files from Mac to PC but not all and sometimes the files don't even look the same when you convert them.
What appears to be happening is you were just bought by the Apple people. Pc people know they have a good product, thus don't have to buy our users.
What is fun is attempting to get parts for Mac or if you need a tech type person finding one that is willing to work on Mac. I just spent 2 days searching for a G3 power supply. Then I had to open the thing and install it. I washed my hands several times after playing with the fruit. I then told my boss that if I must play with fruit I would need more time off or more money.
Have fun with your fruit.
btw, I like the orginal sin thing, think I will use it Monday.
__________________
Because Jesus Loves Children,
Kevin McCullough
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MacKarl
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 10:56am | IP Logged
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Uh, oh, now I'm in trouble! 
Though I did just dig in and get Panther.
I agree with Kevin, that you can do anything on a PC, even more, and translation is limited between the two, but I must admit this, I've no problems with the Mac setting it up (that weren't a part of my Mac-ignorance) and it was set up literally in a few minutes, whereas when I have to re-do my PC, which is about every 6 months, it takes a 12 hour day to get it back to where everything is installed and set up.
PC get cluttered and slow very quickly, and I have a state-of-the-art laptop, and it takes three minutes to boot up (so I hibernate 95% of the time, which works great in XP now)
Question for Mac-lovers - HONESTLY - what is the maintenanc of a Mac? Do you have to defrag? How often do you have to re-do your system? I have to re-do my PC every 3-6 months due to it getting slow and cumbersome, and I have tech problems weekly, probably 3-4 hours a week is wasted on tech support, and PC tech support is as lame as any - people reading manuals to me on the phone, I know more usually than the tech support rep I get! I usually end up explaining it to them, and hang up more frustrated than before I placed the call. I think the real tech quizes don't work for tech support? Not sure, but I've never gotten a tech support rep that knew more than me, and its not like I'm a super techie guy, I'm really not. I'm a power-user, but not a techno-whiz.
Macs are expensive, that is another down-side, yet when you look at all the included software that comes included that costs extra on PC, it really balances it out.
Keep the argument, er, conversation going! I am learning a lot!
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JediKindergartner
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 11:14am | IP Logged
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That's funny, Kevin -- I've not had a single of your problems. And, mind you, I'm still forced to use PCs frequently at school and on a few other occassions. (That's not to mention people still ask me to play Tech Support for PCs.  )
And I don't exactly understand what you mean by it being difficult to exchange files. The only problem I've had to date with file inter-operability has been when a friend tried sending an .AVI of something he ripped off TV; it was encoded in some very rare, funky codec. It wouldn't even work on two other PCs. But everything else -- you name the file -- I haven't had problems with it. In fact, I often keep a lot of my personal documents on my USB memory stick and I can easily unplug it from my Mac, plug it into any PC (well, any PC with WinXP, since nothing else has the drivers built in -- not so with Macs, they'll just go with it), and all of my files are there and I can open them all seamlessly. These are my most personal, absolutely necessary documents, mind you -- and not a single problem. (Well, I can't say that: WinXP does seem to clutter the stick with temporary file folders/images and ".ds_" copies of whatever I open -- it's just bizarre, but then it's Windows. )
*Shrugs*
I've also successfully plugged my Mac into many networks, without a hitch whatsoever. (Actually, I think all of them were Windows-only networks too.) Plug the network cable in, Mac really does take care of the rest -- and in a matter of 30 seconds, you're on the network. I haven't even had that kind of luck getting PCs running on networks -- and I'd like to think I've had lots of experience, as I'm one of the few all-around tech support dudes at school.
You might have me on the parts: I'll admit that, for the average consumer, it might be difficult to find parts. They are available -- there's dozens of very nice online Mac sites that have comprehensive inventories of all the parts you could need. It just takes a re-orientation of your computing mindset. And, if I just skim the phone book I can easily find half a dozen tech support peoples and businesses that work on Apples.
Then there's Apple's excellent tech support. I've had to make one single call to tech support before; a week or so after I got my G4, I decided I was smart enough to play with the system files and inadvertently messed something up. (I was messing with them like I need to mess with Windows system files, but realized it didn't need messing with. ) One call to tech support and less than an hour later, the problem was fixed and good as new. I was surprised; no annoying background music, not even 30 seconds of waiting, and "Bob" knew exactly what the problem was as I described it (rather poorly at that) and knew exactly how to fix it. They're #1 in tech support, three years running! Wahoo!
Edit: A response to maintenance question...
I was really surprised at how little maintenance my Mac requires. It IS a computer, so yes -- it DOES have computer problems occassionally and requires maintenance, but it's all so very simple and easy.
The thing to understand is OS X is built upon a UNIX-core; it's built to naturally take care of itself. The only thing you should have to do is every week or so check the permissions on your boot harddrive. (You simply open Disk Utility in the Application/Utilities folder, select your harddrive, and hit Repair Disk Permissions.) It takes on average two minutes to run its course on my computer, and I'm more than welcome to surf the net, listen to iTunes, and anything else I might want while it does that.
There's also one more thing that I do every other week or so, but I think the Panther upgrade rendered it superfluous, so technically I don't even need to. OS X is based on UNIX, as I said, and UNIX was designed to run 24/7, mainly as processing computers. Thus, they programmed the operating system to take care of itself, running a program every night in the wee hours of the morning. Now, since most of us don't have our computers running in the wee hours of the morning, we usually have to tell it to do that maintenance ourself. I use a program called MacJanitor, which I just run -- hit a button for it to perform its duties, then leave it running in the background. (It also takes a fair minute or two.) Since Panther, though, I don't even need to do this step anymore; even though I do out of habit.
And that's that. All in all, 4 or 5 minutes of maintenance every week or so and you're set. It runs like it did on Day 1, when I took it out of the box; even better, actually.
Oh, and I have yet to "redo" my Mac. I have yet to reformat any of my harddrives, or do a system-wide purge just to get it running smoothly again, in the 10 months I've had it. My PC friends seem to be reformatting every other week, but no problems here.
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MacKarl
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 11:36am | IP Logged
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I have to agree with jedi some here, I just plugged in the mac to my home network and BOOM i was online, no settings to do or anything, and it is a secure network too. (?)
also, I plugged in my external USB backup drive - BOOM an icon for it appeared on the desk top. I copied all my files over so i could play with them.
Word docs open fine. images too. I got deal on AppleWorks 6 and it is opening my word docs fine. I should get Word x but don't wanna spend too much just yet! Already got iLife and Panther coming!
The only things I'm not liking about Mac is the lack of keyboard shortcuts I am very used to, but I'm sure they are there, just have to relearn them. (like hitting a letter and having the highlight jump to files/folders starting with that letter, and the control-arrows for skipping by word, and home and end being beginning and end of line, and control-home/end being beginning end of sentence, and a few other little things like that)
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MacKarl
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 11:43am | IP Logged
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kevinM6183 wrote:
| What appears to be happening is you were just bought by the Apple people. Pc people know they have a good product, thus don't have to buy our users. |
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I know you were teasing, and your quote was followed by a wink, but just for the record, since the donor will most certainly read this in time, I wasn't being 'bought' - someone generously donated a G4 to Kidology. My personal interest aside, we are happy to have a Mac so that we can make sure that our Mac members and friends have a good experience on Kidology.org Occasionally, we have had pages that didn't view (or view well) on Macs and I'm glad we now can test things on a Mac rather than wait for a Mac user to complain. The problem isn't the Macs, it is usually the HTML. Similar to testing with Netscape (lets not get THAT argument going!) and other browsers. So all teasing aside, its not a bribe, it is a awesome gift we are very thankful for regardless of the fun debate I opened with this 'can of worms." :)
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kevinM6183
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 12:55pm | IP Logged
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Yes I was joking!
To be fully honest if someone gave me a G4 I would use it for movie and graphic type applications. And yes it is a very awesome gift and will expand your ministry. Sorry if I caused any difficulties, just having fun.
MacKarl: I knew it was a joke, just clarifying so the MacFans would still like you. :)
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JediKindergartner
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 1:12pm | IP Logged
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Hey, he did say biased opinions are welcome, and boy -- do we got 'em.
I do have to admit I'm a little bit disappointed that developers simply don't develop for Mac too often. There's a few games I miss playing anymore, and I'm always frustrated when I stick in a DVD and can't play the DVD-ROM special features. (Arrgh.) Then there's the small, ministry-based applications that get developed, but only for PC. 
So no, I wouldn't even try to run a ministry without a PC... as much as I'd like to say I could live my whole life with just Apple, I'd be extremely foolhardy to try.
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kevinM6183
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 2:30pm | IP Logged
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What I don't get is why someone has not made it so you can easily trade files from Mac to Pc and Pc to Mac. We also should be able to set up and run either Mac or Pc applications.
I would think it would be somewhat easy. You should be able to set up a dual boot system. One hard drive formated Mac and the other drive formated PC. Thus you would have the best of both worlds. Now throw in Linux and Unix into the mess like I have at work and now no one wants to share or talk to each other. Somewhat like a bad day with pre-schoolers.
I do like the Mac case, they open easy and everything is easy to get to. Mac Tech support is good and still in the USA so I don't have to fight the language issues.
Until the day when Mac and PC are interchangable we will just have to have two computers to do many jobs correctly.
__________________
Because Jesus Loves Children,
Kevin McCullough
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JediKindergartner
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 2:46pm | IP Logged
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kevinM6183 wrote:
| Now throw in Linux and Unix into the mess like I have at work and now no one wants to share or talk to each other. Somewhat like a bad day with pre-schoolers. |
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Hehee, but at least computers don't shove crayons up their (or worse, your) nose.
Well, there is sort of a way to have a dual boot system. Microsoft has put out VirtualPC for Mac -- essentially allowing you to emulate a PC/Windows XP on your Mac. You can run PC programs, access PC networks, share PC files -- the works.
I can't vouch for it personally, as I find it rather expensive and can't spare the dough. But I do know people who swear by it (tsk, shame on them! ), so I figure it can't hurt owning it. The only thing you can't do with it, I believe, is play certain Windows games through it.
Come to think of it, I should try it out some time; see if it'll run all those Windows-only ministry apps that I need to survive.
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kevinM6183
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 3:23pm | IP Logged
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Dude, I love you! You just made my life 100% easier, thus I can go to my office and do nerd things. You know drink coffee and play quake ha-ha.
I will have my boss buy it (if she will) and if it works I'll let you know, so hold on to your dough for now.
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Kidologist
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Karl Bastian
Joined: 20 October 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 3203
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 5:45pm | IP Logged
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kevinM6183 wrote:
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.....thus I can go to my office .... and play quake ha-ha.
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OK, what am I missing here? "quake ha-ha" - or "quake" what is that?
The Virtual-PC sounds interesting! From the DEMO it looks toooo cool! hmmmmm..... this program moves me to 75.1% PC / 24.9% Mac! (those following my PC/Mac ticker) :)
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JediKindergartner
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 6:00pm | IP Logged
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Hehe, Quake is a pretty popular game that's been around a few years; its renowned for providing tech support types with plenty of entertainment in desparaging moments of boredom, when there's no support-ish stuff to do.
Pretty fun. Ah, but Karl, I do think your ticker should be a little more over to the apple side of things. Say, 57.4%/42.6% in Mac's favor?
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Kidologist
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Karl Bastian
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 6:09pm | IP Logged
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JediKindergartner wrote:
| Ah, but Karl, I do think your ticker should be a little more over to the apple side of things. Say, 57.4%/42.6% in Mac's favor? |
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Not so fast, the momment Mac goes over 50% (that is IF it ever does) I will lose many friends, so I must move slowly here! My Mac friends seem to love me either way, but my PC friends are not all so forgiving.
"The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - famous words of Darth Vader, to which I usually answer, "Oh, yeah, and you are Mr. Forgiveness!" Tread carefully I must, oh Jedi!
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EvanDoyle
Kidology Staff
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 8:15pm | IP Logged
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For those making "the switch", this software is available.
http://www.apple.com/switch/howto/move2mac/
And, this advice.
http://www.apple.com/switch/howto/
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kevinM6183
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 8:19pm | IP Logged
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Karl now that I've give a quick look at virtual pc I could be moved to towards the darkside and be 50% mac and 50% pc. I must ask forgiveness of the great one:
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Kidologist
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Karl Bastian
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Posts: 3203
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 8:40pm | IP Logged
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over 175 views to this thread, and only 9 votes!, (2 of which are mine - yes, I voted twice, once with both personalities in this thread)
Some people must be afraid even to give an anonymous vote! :)
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kevinM6183
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 8:46pm | IP Logged
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Shame, Shame
Stand up and be counted for, right (pc) or wrong(mac) it's ok we are all friends.
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Kidologist
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Karl Bastian
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 9:23pm | IP Logged
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YES!
We KNOW you are reading this,
you know who you are - BE BRAVE!
Cast your vote!
Put your life on the line!
Whether it be Apple or PC!
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JediKindergartner
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| Posted: 10 January 2004 at 10:08pm | IP Logged
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We're all three nuts, you do realize that, don't you?
But hey, it's a lively discussion! We haven't been bored all day, ave we?
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kevinM6183
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| Posted: 11 January 2004 at 3:07am | IP Logged
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What awesome to me is that I have never face to face meet any of you, but as Christians I feel a bond to each of you. I look forward to the funny ha-ha and the crys for help, etc.
I would have to say that hearing the people on this web site and the interaction has been one of the most impressive events I've been apart.
Can't sleep so I'm up a bit late or early. Have a Fruitful Sunday ha-ha could not resist.
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Because Jesus Loves Children,
Kevin McCullough
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MacKarl
Group Member
Joined: 05 January 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted: 12 January 2004 at 1:34am | IP Logged
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OK, anyone ever heard of: ThinkFree software?
http://www.thinkfree.com/
I downloaded the demo, seems pretty cool, and opens my Word docs better than AppleWorks, and is only $49 compaired to $200+ for Word X from Billgatesinc.
Also, it says that it is Word or Mac compatible, and you share files via the Internet, much like .Mac it seems, anyway, Jedi or anyone else, ever used it?
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mellicktoo
Premium Member
Joined: 20 September 2004
Posts: 30
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| Posted: 12 January 2004 at 12:04pm | IP Logged
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I havent used a Mac since high school so naturally I have to vote for PC. I also recently learned that a friend that has a Mac can not use the same messaging software. I am disappointed to hear that. Oh well live and learn!
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Kidology Network Forum : Let's Talk Children's Ministry
Topic: PC vs. Mac
