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eriepastor7638
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Joined: 30 November 2005
Posts: 382
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| Posted: 07 December 2007 at 12:24pm | IP Logged
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I finished Golden Compass. In the final pages, the doctrine of original sin cast as invention of the clergy to control.
Pullman is a fantastic author. But yes, he obviously has a strong anti-Christian agenda. And he is provide a template for children to escape the "confines" of Christian thought.
Its interesting to see that the film is getting panned by early reviewers. I'm seeing 1 and 1.5 stars pop up. Same thing happened with the Da Vinci Code movie. The church braced itself to converse with-, or resist culture (depending on ones biases) only to find out that the culture didn't care for the movie anyhow.
I will say that Overstreet's screening of the film has me concerned. I might be eating some crow over my remarks that the film is probably harmless.
Larry Shallenberger
(Karl-- I will renew my membership soon. Waiting for the "green light" from the fiancial office.)
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MarkyMarc
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Marc Romero, Kidology Champion
Joined: 23 June 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 464
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| Posted: 07 December 2007 at 12:44pm | IP Logged
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I keep hearing and reading the comparisons to the DaVinci Code when people talk about The Golden Compass, but I think we really have to assess what happened after the DaVinci Code came out in theaters to appreciate the concerns about The Golden Compass.
Yes, the DaVinci Code movie was panned and didn't generate the huge box office that people expected. But the book went back to number 1 on the bestsellers lists for over a year! The movie stunk but people really responded to the book - for almost a year after the movie dropped off and was forgotten.
I think the Golden Compass could follow the same suit. It may not be a huge blockbuster success but it's not just a movie we're talking about. And it's not just a stand alone book - it's part of a trilogy that gets more and more blantant as it goes.
I think the analogy to the DaVinci Code is correct...but not in a positive way at all. Let's not make the same mistake again of equating box office failures with no impact on our culture.
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eriepastor7638
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Joined: 30 November 2005
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| Posted: 08 December 2007 at 7:52am | IP Logged
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The Golden Compass Movie is definately creating an awareness about the books. No doubt, but the movie needs to be evaluated as a seperate piece of art.
Back to the DVC, I'd love to see evidence that the Outreach efforts actually increased dialogue between the church and the unchurched. My suspicion is that they served better to reinforce correct doctrine within evangelicalism. That is a good goal, but it's not evangelism.
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henryjz
CP Team
CP = Canadian Pastor
Joined: 16 October 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 1059
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| Posted: 08 December 2007 at 9:59am | IP Logged
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I watched the movie last night, and I have to say that I do not agree with Overstreet's assessment on anti-religious views being as blatant in the movie as in the book. You really had to be looking for them to see them.
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Kidologist
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Karl Bastian
Joined: 20 October 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 3226
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| Posted: 08 December 2007 at 12:21pm | IP Logged
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I went to the movie last night with a fellow children's pastor. I will be writing a longer article soon about it.
I have been reading with great interest all the "buzz" on this film, but decided to withhold posting my thoughts until I had read the book and seen the film.
In summary, I'll say this. Aside from the very serious spiritual implications, (FAR GREATER threat than anything Harry Potter ever did), I have serious concerns simply as a parent.
Here are a few of the BLANTANT messages of the film:
1) It is better for children to disobey.
2) It is best to lie yourself out of any tough situation.
3) Some people know what to do, others need to be told. But you can choose to be the one telling yourself what is best or right for you.
For these STRONG messages alone I would not allow my child to see this film. (not to mention the PG-13 rating, even the secular world is saying this is NOT for kids)
My next concern would be the harsh violence. Scenes that I enjoyed as an adult (the Polar Bear Duel was my favorite scene in the film) I would not allow my son to watch until he was over the recommended 13. It was graphic and bloody.
Spiritual Concerns:
1) The Church is definitely and blantantly made to be the enemy who seeks to control not only the world, but all worlds by telling the masses "nicely" what they should think.
2) Free thinkers are a threat.
3) Truth is an enemy.
4) Your soul is a demon. (forget that they spell it slightly different, it is pronoubced exactly the same in the film.) Your demon is your friend.
5) The "evil plot" of the movie is that the church wants to separate children from their souls so that they will be mind numbed followers without the ability to think for themselves or question anything. If they have their way, only the Church leaders will have a soul, but will still hide the truth, so they can rule the masses. (these children would grow up into adults with no capacity for independent thought or free will.)
6) Witches are the ones who are good and who save the day. (no big surprise there)
SUMMARY: This film is garbage. A few fleeting positive themes are so diluted by the blantant harmful messages to children. It is sad that kids are reading this and being taught (directly, not by hinting) to be disobedient, lying children.
I'm glad even secular critics are giving it poor ratings. I haven't even commented on the lousy scripting and editing and disappointing sudden ending that left everyone gasping, "that's it?... it's over?"
While I did enjoy some of the visual aspects of the film (we are in an era of eye dazzlingly special effects) these advances are being used to draw children to a very blantantly destructive message.
I have some other thoughts on a broader cultural scale that I will be writing about this weekend that I will post on my blog and link here.
Until then - the film was mostly lame, but the message is not lame, it is dangerous.
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eriepastor7638
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Joined: 30 November 2005
Posts: 382
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| Posted: 10 December 2007 at 9:05pm | IP Logged
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Kidologist wrote:
I went to the movie last night with a fellow children's pastor. I will be writing a longer article soon about it.
I have been reading with great interest all the "buzz" on this film, but decided to withhold posting my thoughts until I had read the book and seen the film.
In summary, I'll say this. Aside from the very serious spiritual implications, (FAR GREATER threat than anything Harry Potter ever did), I have serious concerns simply as a parent.
Here are a few of the BLANTANT messages of the film:
1) It is better for children to disobey.
2) It is best to lie yourself out of any tough situation.
3) Some people know what to do, others need to be told. But you can choose to be the one telling yourself what is best or right for you.
For these STRONG messages alone I would not allow my child to see this film. (not to mention the PG-13 rating, even the secular world is saying this is NOT for kids)
My next concern would be the harsh violence. Scenes that I enjoyed as an adult (the Polar Bear Duel was my favorite scene in the film) I would not allow my son to watch until he was over the recommended 13. It was graphic and bloody.
Spiritual Concerns:
1) The Church is definitely and blantantly made to be the enemy who seeks to control not only the world, but all worlds by telling the masses "nicely" what they should think.
2) Free thinkers are a threat.
3) Truth is an enemy.
4) Your soul is a demon. (forget that they spell it slightly different, it is pronoubced exactly the same in the film.) Your demon is your friend.
5) The "evil plot" of the movie is that the church wants to separate children from their souls so that they will be mind numbed followers without the ability to think for themselves or question anything. If they have their way, only the Church leaders will have a soul, but will still hide the truth, so they can rule the masses. (these children would grow up into adults with no capacity for independent thought or free will.)
6) Witches are the ones who are good and who save the day. (no big surprise there)
SUMMARY: This film is garbage. A few fleeting positive themes are so diluted by the blantant harmful messages to children. It is sad that kids are reading this and being taught (directly, not by hinting) to be disobedient, lying children.
I'm glad even secular critics are giving it poor ratings. I haven't even commented on the lousy scripting and editing and disappointing sudden ending that left everyone gasping, "that's it?... it's over?"
While I did enjoy some of the visual aspects of the film (we are in an era of eye dazzlingly special effects) these advances are being used to draw children to a very blantantly destructive message.
I have some other thoughts on a broader cultural scale that I will be writing about this weekend that I will post on my blog and link here.
Until then - the film was mostly lame, but the message is not lame, it is dangerous. |
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Karl, I have great respect for you, but I have concern about how you are interpretting the film.
1) Most of the anti-religion themes have been purged from the film. (See the Atlantic Monthly Dec. 2007 article on how/why.)
2) Yes daemon is pronounced the same as demon. However, the Greek mythological "daemon" is a different entity than the Hebrew "demon." It's not fair to make the an equivalency.
3) Part of "exegeting" a fantasy world is to understand the universe as the author intended, and then to make moral evaluations. The witches in a Pullman's universe seem to be a magical race and not occultists. The Bible obviously forbids witchcraft, but I don't see Pullman's witches (or Rowlings) being the same entities.
4) "Some people know what to do, some people need to be told what to do." This quote came out of the villian's mouth. Not even Pullman believes this is a true statement. He put those words in his conniving villian's mouth and not in the mouth of one of his heroes. Ms. Coulters' defeat will invalidate her position...
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zNyteAngel
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Joined: 21 August 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 8:15am | IP Logged
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Just curious, since this movie has released... in your area, what were the results of the movie?
In our area, opening night, in the town just north of us only had 2 people actually go see it. In the city, the 4 movie theatres only had a total of 50 people on opening night. The movie really flopped here. Praise the Lord!! :)
What about the rest of the USA?
__________________
"and hope doesn't disappoint us for we have the power of the Holy Spirit within us" Romans 5:5
Bekah
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Trickeakia
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 9:44am | IP Logged
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From Dictionary.com:
daemon
¨Cnoun
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Classical Mythology.
| b. |
a subordinate deity, as the genius of a place or a person's attendant spirit. | |
[Origin: < L daem¨n a spirit, an evil spirit < Gk da¨ªm¨n a deity, fate, fortune; cf. da¨ªesthai to distribute ]
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Kidologist
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Karl Bastian
Joined: 20 October 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 3226
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 9:59am | IP Logged
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eriepastor7638 wrote:
Kidologist wrote:
| my quote above, twice, so removed from here. |
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Karl, I have great respect for you, but I have concern about how you are interpretting the film.
1) Most of the anti-religion themes have been purged from the film. (See the Atlantic Monthly Dec. 2007 article on how/why.)
2) Yes daemon is pronounced the same as demon. However, the Greek mythological "daemon" is a different entity than the Hebrew "demon." It's not fair to make the an equivalency.
3) Part of "exegeting" a fantasy world is to understand the universe as the author intended, and then to make moral evaluations. The witches in a Pullman's universe seem to be a magical race and not occultists. The Bible obviously forbids witchcraft, but I don't see Pullman's witches (or Rowlings) being the same entities.
4) "Some people know what to do, some people need to be told what to do." This quote came out of the villian's mouth. Not even Pullman believes this is a true statement. He put those words in his conniving villian's mouth and not in the mouth of one of his heroes. Ms. Coulters' defeat will invalidate her position... |
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Larry, I love ya!
Keep in mind, my response is with the focus of the impact on children, not film critics.
1) I have read the book and seen the film, and I saw nothing purged. It is pretty obvious the government is the Church. (from the robes, to the bowing, to the architecture...) To me, a child is going to see the CHURCH as evil in this film as much as in the books.
2) I don't know one child who will know about the Greek mythological "daemon" - (most children's pastors don't or the general public) so to me its a mute point. Kids hear "demon" and see demons as nice pets. That is dangerous. The mythogical connection may be true, but is irrelevant to the popular culture, since only film critics will ever read or learn that.
3) Witches: I with you on the literary angle. I'm not anti-Harry (just Harry cautious) and love Narnia and LOTR - where witches may not be what the bible forbids... but again, I'm focused on children's perceptions, not literature analysis. You must consider things quite simply for kids: in the film, witches "save the day" - message: witches are good. This is a dangerous message for kids when in the real world witches are extremely deadly and dangerous to a child's spiritual growth. I'm not talking theory - i know model Christian children from strong Christian homes that I can name that strayed from the faith after a fascination with "good witches" lead them to want to become a witch, and ultimately to deny Christ and leave the church to their parents shock and dismay - who bought the the Harry Potter books. (not all Harry's fault, but pro-witch literature is spiritually dangerous)
4) Again - from the perspective of viewing kids - the villian may have SAID it, but the hero of the film, Lyra, likes it, believes it, and models it. She is a hero who lies her way through everything, disobeys, and sets a bad example of what it means to be a real hero.
This film had AMAZING special effects and some thrilling moments, but its message was destructive to children, despite any literary excuses we may make. Kids are not literary critics, they are sponges who get only the message of the film. The time it would take to correct all the negative messages of this film are not worth the benefits. It would take too much time to correct this film's teaching to my son (were we old enough to see it) if I had my choice, I would not let him see it.
The reality is, kids WILL see it, and more will read the books, so we DO need to be prepared to correct these very harmful themes in the film/book.
Larry - I love your attention to detail and your courage to engage in the culture when others just stick their head in the ground - I'm all for that. But I fear at times in trying to engage the culture through film we end up defending the film - in my mind, there is nothing to defend here in the this film. But we are right to not just look the other way and blindly ban it.
The Golden Compass is our Mars Hill - and we must wisely but boldly stand up to it and speak the Truth in love.
zNyteAngel wrote:
Just curious, since this movie has released... in your area, what were the results of the movie?
In our area, opening night, in the town just north of us only had 2 people actually go see it. In the city, the 4 movie theatres only had a total of 50 people on opening night. The movie really flopped here. Praise the Lord!! :)
What about the rest of the USA? |
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Besides me, my friend, and our wives, there was only one other dad and a son in the theater - and this was opening night, 5:30pm showing, the last matinee and perfect time for kids viewing to still make bed-time...
I was surprised it did so poorly. The trailer were awesome, and the appeal seemed strong. I'm amazed how poorly it did for the marketing.
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eriepastor7638
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 10:15am | IP Logged
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All the best, Karl! I'm with you on the Mars Hill reference, but differ with your reading of the books. I do appreciate your sensitivity to a child's perspective.
For the record, I have discouraged parents from allowing elementary-aged children from reading the books.
--
I was in a 1/3 full theater on Sunday.
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misscourtney
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:47pm | IP Logged
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spteaches wrote:
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First off, let me say that I agree that this movie probably should not be seen, but if the author is a militant atheist he obviously doesn't believe that there is a God. So one of our church members and I were dicussing this movie on Sunday and he asked a good question. If the author of the books doesn't believe in God why does he write about killing God? So apparently he isn't as big an atheist as he claims he is.
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I've read all three books and the God that he kills is not really a god at all, just someone who stole power. He isnt' the real creator in the book.
__________________
You are the light of the world... let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven
Matthew 5:14-16
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Kidology Network Forum : Let's Talk Children's Ministry
Topic: Golden Compass concerns
